A couple of interesting articles I was forwarded by my grandparents. The first deals with the pope's desire for a reunion of Christianity. The second is his call for more religious Sundays.
I was a little sceptical until I went straight to the source (The Guardian) for the links. I know we're all aware how these statements are going to be interpreted. Anyone care to comment?
I decided it wasn't fair to fish without offering up a comment myself. I know I'm a bit more religiously conservative than most here (but not as much as I used to be). I know that we've all had reactions to our upbringing that have carried us varying distances from the doctrines or dogma we grew up with.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, my feeling is that a period of persecution has already begun. In America, it's Muslims who are the current target. In other nations, other religious groups feel the heat. I think that we're looking squarely at a time of widespread religious intolerance. And many fundamentalists of every stripe will be feeding the fire with as much dogmatic gas as they can lay their hands on.
I don't think it's so important who starts persecuting whom. I do think we have a responsibility to fight it with all the best (peaceful!) means we have available. And I think that it's a sign of humanity's continued terminal degredation.
I continue to consider myself a Seventh-day Adventist because I keep Sabbath and believe Christ is coming again soon. I think these events are indications of what's coming, but I wouldn't even begin to guess at a time line, and I don't give any creedence to those who do.
My thoughts only.
My apologies to Hbot for yet another blogjacking. My thanks to Hbot for starting up Slacktopia in the first place. I appreciate inside view of Hbot's head that it gives me, and I enjoy the conversations that take place in the comments.
ReplyDeleteWell, those are interesting links. But I'm not quite ready for second coming panic. "Oh crap it's the end of time! Hide the unclean meats!" The current state of my Christianity is best left for a long, self-involved post at a later date. Should I ever be required to sign a form stating that I'll only go to church on Sunday with an accompanying stamp on the hand or forehead, I'll be pretty well convinced. Part of the interesting thing about the Y2K panic, was that I discovered that many protestant religions believe that other christian religions will rise up and persecute their religion as part of their eschatology. I'm still digesting that information. But I don't like the pessimistic Christian view of things. I agree that religious intolerance is the new fun thing for segments of the population. I read the other day that hate crimes are on the rise. I've been following James Dobson's pronouncements about what kind of theocracy he wants this country to be and his influence over key Republican senators. But I don't really think of it as Satan's increasing power, or an inevitable decline into evil. Rather I think of it as a lack of education (i.e. critical thinking), cultural ignorance, and a culture of fear that politicians and some religious leaders like to promote in order to enact a specific agenda. I believe there are steps on can take to fight such things, and that it is not an inevitable decline into evil. And what I know of God leads me to believe that doing what you can to fight intolerance and the like is the correct response, not assuming that Satan is guiding humanity into dark times and the only real response is to evangelize. Not to get too preachy, or minimize other's beliefs, I just like the progressive idea that life (specifically the governemnt and society) is what we make it, not what God told G.W. or James Dobson it should be. So I guess we agree that fighting intolerance is good, but disagree on the general trend of humanity. golly, there's a bunch more I want to write here but don't have time. I'm sure it will come up again (and we can further discuss over phone hazmatt). But yes, this pope is both scary-looking and an adventist nightmare (or wet-dream, depending on the adventist).
ReplyDeleteit's not blog-jacking unless I give you administrative privilege and you actually start editing my posts and replacing them with your own content. Guest blogging means you don't have to ask permission before posting. Just post and be happy.
This is interesting stuff! I don't know so much whether I consider myself an Adventist or not, but regardless I think the end-time views we've grown up with are pretty much how it's going to go down. Catholics throughout history have responded to the moral desert with the all stick, no carrot. With the state of our nation in moral disarray, forcing morals on people with the usual tools of the trade, guilt, shame, coersion and legislation, seems like a pretty predictable course of action.
ReplyDeleteThey want to just open up our heads and pour in the truth. I want to go four-wheeling in the pope-mobile.
I think you've told me before (Hbot) about the other Protestant congregations and their parallel views of their own persecution and end time events. I've got to say that I'm not at all surprised. I think it's has much to do with the fact that Protestant Christian faiths don't generally spring up "de novo," but rather break off from other denominations over some point of doctrine or behavior. The roots of all Protestant denominations then are common, and there is at least a background of common doctrine among most.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, the division of all the various denominations could feed as much into the persecution complex as anything else. After all, why split off at all unless 1) you felt hostility from the larger group because of your beliefs or 2) you believed that you had been given truth that the larger group would not accept. Either attitude could easily sprout and foster a sense of "eventually, they're going to turn on us because of this."
And again, I think in the end, ultimately, that's going to happen. I think it's a question of to what degree, but the fractious factions (say that 5 times fast!) will likely continue to splinter under pressure, speeding their own demise by their lack of ability to be cohesive.
I worry about the unholy marriage of convenience between politics and theology. This is exactly what the founding fathers were trying to avoid. America was not founded as a Christian nation. It was founded as a nation where each citizen could worship (or not) whatever diety or combination of dieties they pleased.
Ach. I rant. But I do feel that philosophers and teachers throughout history have been attempting to spread the idea that humanity as a species can pull itself up out of the mud and put on clean clothes and learn to play nice. I think if they were right, it should have happened by now. It's like K said in "Men in Black". . . "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it." I don't think we're going to reach Utopia without divine intervention. And I think that intervention is going to shatter our world and our preconceived ideas.
This is only interesting because we've been conditioned to find it so (and I'm just as guilty). It's true all Protestant religions do have a common backbone and that is Catholocism.
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing is that the Catholic church is at it's lowest point of influence right now. Evangelicals are kicking their ass in South America. Converting left and right away from the purgatory spewing anti-christs.
I see this as a dying gasp of the old new school Catholic church. Consolidating European power and becoming more insular, before either crumbling or massive changes with the next pope.
The culture war between Prods here on the home front is much more scary. That's why I support the right for lesbians to abort a fetus and use it's stem cells to regenerate a medicinal pot smoker who performs assited suicides for a living. And I support this by watching Desperate Housewives.
Group bonding and it's opposite persecution are fascinating to me. It's the one human characteristic shared througout time and culture. The us and the not us. Untill we can see past that we will never progress as a human race. But I don't see it as a sign of times it is a sign of every times, it is the human condition.
Eric said what I wanted to, but more clearly and concisely. And Kaleb provided much needed perspective. But I think the idea that "if we haven't pulled ourselves out of the mud before now, we never will" is silly. It's just been in the last century that "the most wonderful nation ever" decided that women and people with darker skin pigmentation should be considered full citizens. Which is just to point out that when you get enough people awake and upset about something, progress can be made and sometimes for large swaths of society. Which is why i don't like putting caps on future progress before hand. What's the point of that? We can't change anything if we start with the statement "we'll never change anything." I know I'm being a little unfar it your argument (and I sound like a crazy liberal), and I know you're not advocating hiding in churches, I just disapprove of your overall pessimism. Granted, I am also pessimistic about current events, but I remain optimisitic about eventual progress. These things tend to be cyclic, we just have to cross our fingers that this down-cycle won't eventually involve massive amounts of radiation. I also don't like "God will never allow .. " or "God is the only one who can change x" arguments because that leads to statements by people like Rush Limbaugh that God would never allow massive climate change to take place because we make a mistake (he actually said he didn't think God would allow global warming). I just think it's a dangerous to base your actions on that kind of thinking.
ReplyDeleteKaleb brought up a good point about our fascination stemming from our up-bringing. I admit I am trying to flee from certain adventist mindsets. I don't want to worry about the end of time, every time I hear a story about the pope. My favorite aspects of the church are ADRA and our hospital system. Because they do the most good, with the smallest amount of dogma. I would rather do things that substatially help people, than worry at what rate the world spirals into darkness or when God's going to call the whole thing off. Who wants to live that way?
Note: On a personal level, I try to be a decent person in my interactions with other people, but have not changed society as a whole. I spend a lot of time playing video games. I understand that makes my arguments, um, weaker.
Isn't interesting how most of us mention our level of conservative/liberal or Seventh-day Adventist/Secularist. Yet we are all uncomfortable where we fit on that scale, uncomfortable enought that we try to define ourselves even among friends who know us from Grade school.
ReplyDeleteWhat is our label? What is our us? I think we are all Seventh-day Badventists. With hazmatt being the least Bad.
I agree we with hbot we are in a cycle, right now things are very polarized. The us's and thems are clearly defined. Are you a red stater or a blue stater? After enough damage is done the contrast level will decrease, I give it 5 -10 years. But the actual solving of the problem will take centuries on a worldwide level, and quite frankly I hope it's never truly solved. The Star Trek universe is just to bland.
Yo, dudes. This is hbot's younger brother, although I prefer not be a bot, or baht (Thai currency), for that matter.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, you are all doomed to hell for not adhering to your elders' religion. Shame on you fuckers.
Vulgarity aside (it's not a sin, it's just vulgar), overall, I don't see much progress in this world. Some societies are improving, but only in a general mindset. There is still murder, convictions that spawn murder, and fucking idiots everywhere. Things may get better, but maybe in another 6000 years, or after the apocalypse (ALL THE WAY, SDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Like Eric said, those end time events might be playing out like we were told. Even though I don't like being Adventist for all the drawbacks, what the elders teach may be true. If this is not the end's beginning, I still think it will come eventually in one way or another. I think a lot of SDA's are seeing this, but more and more are becoming reasonable and not trying to worry, because if they believe in God, then they're ok, right? No matter if they die tomorrow or whatever, if they're with God, the end of the world should not worry them. Funny, but just recently I noticed a lot of bad news come at once: the antichrist was elected, a bunch of people connected the SDA Church here died or got cancer or died from cancer or got beaten into a coma by muggers, or, the worst one - my replacement at the school I just quit teaching at got hit by a truck and died because his leg got blown off.
All this may be nothing, and just more of the same, but I've never noticed so much bad news at once. Again, it doesn't mean anything necessarily (it's just birth pains, right?), but it did make me think (meaning all the dying and the Pope), as obviously it did all of you. Hbot, I think Jesus would say, "Ready or not, here I come. Whether you feel like me coming or not." Or maybe he wouldn't and I'm a blasphemer.
Now, leave me in peace so I can go ride these two Thai hookers ragged. Thangs a bunch.
--- Bangkok slut